2017
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semweb semweb* semweb 2017-10-11T11:45:29+00:00 148
sbp semweb sbp
I'm glad that there are still exciting things going on. there's the blockchain space, language design giving us things like rust and idris, we have HoTT (I was very sad to hear about the recent passing of Vladimir Voedovsky). but I do feel a lot more mental friction now without people like AaronSw around, and DanC off doing other things in different circles of life
2017-10-11T11:35:57
sbp semweb sbp
when I started doing this, I didn't even know how to program. it's strange to think back over nearly two decades now and think where I was when this started! I knew some BASIC and a very little bit of C. next thing I know, AaronSw is teaching me regular expressions and I'm hacking together RDF triple databases in Python
2017-10-11T11:34:10
sbp semweb sbp
and I miss those times when DanC and AaronSw and I would be up all night just bantering about random stuff. I look back on it now and there's still so much palpable excitement
2017-10-11T11:32:58
sbp semweb sbp
I didn't really appreciate at the time just how much DanC did for me
2017-10-11T11:32:14
sbp semweb sbp
I think the biggest aspect of the Semantic Web, one that I haven't mentioned in my somewhat dispassionate research above, for me on a personal level was the society. I made lifelong friends like libby (hey libs!), and some people really helped to nurture and mentor me like DanC and AaronSw
2017-10-11T11:31:57
yoleaux semweb yoleaux
saltpack - a modern crypto messaging format
2017-10-11T11:26:18
sbp semweb sbp
.title saltpack.org/
2017-10-11T11:26:16
sbp semweb sbp
found it:
2017-10-11T11:26:15
sbp semweb sbp
it wasn't keybase.io/docs/crypto/key-exchange they had some separate site for it
2017-10-11T11:25:43
sbp semweb sbp
they also had some format for crypto exchange somewhere...
2017-10-11T11:25:05
sbp semweb sbp
yeah, just a tiny thing
2017-10-11T11:24:44
sbp semweb sbp
(all based in centralised services of course)
2017-10-11T11:24:30
ww semweb ww
minor issue...
2017-10-11T11:24:23
sbp semweb sbp
but they have some good ideas. keybase.io/docs/client/pvl_spec is like a decentralised key signing party
2017-10-11T11:24:20
sbp semweb sbp
a few problems though, like through their client you just have arbitrary write access to people's hard drives
2017-10-11T11:23:45
sbp semweb sbp
they have a load of stuff going on, it's pretty good reading
2017-10-11T11:23:24
sbp semweb sbp
keybase.io/docs
2017-10-11T11:23:17
sbp semweb sbp
oh, one thing I did find recently that reminded me of the proof/trust layer in the Semantic Web cake graph was keybase
2017-10-11T11:22:55
sbp semweb sbp
though, I think we can conclude from my investigation above, the presence or not of both dc_swig and the logger are probably somewhat moot in this day and age
2017-10-11T11:18:21
sbp semweb sbp
I think dajobe ran dc_swig. perhaps mentioning his name will summon him
2017-10-11T11:17:45
sbp semweb sbp
Harry I know very slightly
2017-10-11T11:17:10
ww semweb ww
hhalpin and i overlapped here a little
2017-10-11T11:16:31
sbp semweb sbp
especially as an ORG member
2017-10-11T11:16:18
ww semweb ww
likewise
2017-10-11T11:16:11
ww semweb ww
that's my very out of date homepage
2017-10-11T11:16:06
sbp semweb sbp
I don't know you. pleased to meet you though
2017-10-11T11:16:04
* semweb *
       ww  looks for dc_swig
2017-10-11T11:15:59
ww semweb ww
tardis.ed.ac.uk/~wwaites/
2017-10-11T11:15:49
sbp semweb sbp
you're also at Edinburgh, where I remember a handful of Semantic Web folk were based in the golden age
2017-10-11T11:15:32
sbp semweb sbp
if you know zooko then I assume we have overlapping social circles
2017-10-11T11:15:09
sbp semweb sbp
who are you, ww? somebody whom I know? I don't recognise your nickname
2017-10-11T11:14:57
sbp semweb sbp
oh, I see
2017-10-11T11:14:33
sbp semweb sbp
there's also crap like filecoin
2017-10-11T11:14:23
ww semweb ww
sbp: i meant as a name for the thing
2017-10-11T11:14:16
sbp semweb sbp
yeah, I think it's pretty much tahoe-lafs next generation
2017-10-11T11:14:15
ww semweb ww
we did something similar a while back with zooko et al doing that with tahoe-lafs
2017-10-11T11:13:52
ww semweb ww
actually, ipfs with a tor hidden service front end is not a bad pattern...
2017-10-11T11:13:37
sbp semweb sbp
I didn't always like it, but over time you learn to separate the wheat from the chaff and certain features reveal themselves as having been valuable in hindsight that you might not have paid sufficient attention to at the time
2017-10-11T11:13:24
* semweb *
       ww  dips in and out of this stuff... always liked "semantic web"...
2017-10-11T11:12:20
sbp semweb sbp
I miss the old CWM and Tabulator days. exciting times!
2017-10-11T11:12:14
ww semweb ww
Data Activity, that's a new buzzword...
2017-10-11T11:11:34
sbp semweb sbp
timbl: what are you working on these days? I saw a lot about HTML EME, but I don't suppose that's your main preoccupation, and the Data Activity at the W3C doesn't seem all that active
2017-10-11T11:11:24
sbp semweb sbp
oh, no chump bot either?
2017-10-11T11:07:44
sbp semweb sbp
lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2017Oct/0003.html
2017-10-11T11:07:25
sbp semweb sbp
so yeah, the Semantic Web may be out of the golden age, but I think like lisp it'll be one of those things that sticks around and gets rediscovered over and over, continually informing (and warning) the future
2017-10-11T10:50:15
sbp semweb sbp
so no Semantic Decentralised Web is possible just yet
2017-10-11T10:48:54
sbp semweb sbp
these days we have the blockchain for name resolution, but nobody has figured out a decent DNS alternative through it yet (there have been many attempts). actually the best alternative is still Tor's .onion, which is kinda funny. and as for decentralised storage, IPFS was the closest there, but that seems to be losing traction too
2017-10-11T10:48:33
sbp semweb sbp
if only we had a decentralised system to put it into, eh?
2017-10-11T10:47:39
sbp semweb sbp
but the original idea, which is something like upgrading the lisp machine from trees to graphs (incurring a bunch of algorithmically intractable problems like graph isomorphism in the process, whoops! nobody ever said timbl was a great coder), making symbols global and universal, and then linking together all the graphs in a decentralised system, was actually a pretty good one
2017-10-11T10:47:32
sbp semweb sbp
so people share through centralised services, and we get the problem that Peter Mika pointed out
2017-10-11T10:46:15
sbp semweb sbp
these days I tend to think that the problem with the Semantic Web was not the Semantic part, it was the Web part. renting a domain from ICANN, putting it through the torture of DNS, serving things over HTTP/2 (Google Lightning™), through centralised CAs, it's not the easiest thing to do and it's not the cheapest thing to do
2017-10-11T10:45:33
sbp semweb sbp
(actually I had)
2017-10-11T10:44:20
sbp semweb sbp
so we had the Semantic Web (2001-2005), Linked Data (2006-2010), JSON-LD (2010-2014), and now the Data Activity (2015-) rump. some interesting phases there. I stopped working on this in 2007, so that explains why I hadn't heard of JSON-LD
2017-10-11T10:44:18
sbp semweb sbp
there's also a bit on bibwild.wordpress.com/2014/10/28/is-the-semantic-web-still-a-thing/ which takes the Betteridge's law tack
2017-10-11T10:42:24
sbp semweb sbp
lots of people I remember mentioned in the Postscript
2017-10-11T10:41:33
sbp semweb sbp
now he can add JSON-LD to that list :-)
2017-10-11T10:40:54
sbp semweb sbp
'That said, after 7+ years of being involved with Semantic Web / Linked Data, our company has never had a need for a quad store, RDF/XML, N3, NTriples, TURTLE, or SPARQL. When you chair standards groups that kick out “Semantic Web” standards, but even your company can’t stomach the technologies involved, something is wrong.'
2017-10-11T10:40:42
sbp semweb sbp
you can unpack one to get the other. Text is for representational efficiency
2017-10-11T10:40:13
sbp semweb sbp
it didn't have them as an enclosed object though. I wonder if it should have done, a bit like how Haskell has Text now (opaque blob) as well as String (inductive data structure)
2017-10-11T10:39:57
sbp semweb sbp
I mean, it absolutely did have lists, and N3 showed how to do it
2017-10-11T10:39:22
sbp semweb sbp
manu.sporny.org/2014/json-ld-origins-2/
2017-10-11T10:38:51
sbp semweb sbp
"RDF is a shitty data model. It doesn’t have native support for lists. LISTS for fuck’s sake! The key data structure that’s used by almost every programmer on this planet and RDF starts out by giving developers a big fat middle finger in that area."
2017-10-11T10:38:49
sbp semweb sbp
Manu Sporny on the creation of JSON-LD:
2017-10-11T10:38:45
sbp semweb sbp
mostly in conjunction with schema.org
2017-10-11T10:37:58
sbp semweb sbp
so I guess JSON-LD was the latest fad, covering about 2010 to 2014
2017-10-11T10:37:50
sbp semweb sbp
something more recent: blog.codeship.com/json-ld-building-meaningful-data-apis/
2017-10-11T10:37:38
sbp semweb sbp
lots more SEO posts too
2017-10-11T10:37:19
sbp semweb sbp
one of the top results for JSON-LD is an SEO weblog saying: "In this post, we'll shed some light on Schema.org and JSON-LD. What is it and how can you put it to use for your website?"
2017-10-11T10:37:00
sbp semweb sbp
but it's funny because Wikipedia says: "The encoding is used by Google Knowledge Graph[6] and others[who?]."
2017-10-11T10:36:13
sbp semweb sbp
from 2010, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON-LD
2017-10-11T10:35:48
sbp semweb sbp
*lots* of chatter about JSON-LD here
2017-10-11T10:35:33
sbp semweb sbp
'On a more down-to-earth level, there is now a solid web metadata standard in place in JSON-LD. The big search engines index it and presumably use it to give better results. Any startup can add value to published data by adding links - in a significant extension to the "API economy".'
2017-10-11T10:35:26
sbp semweb sbp
"JSON-LD, which is a profound improvement on and compatible with the original RDF, is the only web metadata standard with a viable future."
2017-10-11T10:34:54
sbp semweb sbp
three years ago: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510401
2017-10-11T10:34:12
sbp semweb sbp
I have never seen any JSON-LD
2017-10-11T10:33:48
sbp semweb sbp
"Technologies like JSON-LD may change this."
2017-10-11T10:33:45
sbp semweb sbp
I find the API economy such a pain in the arse. I tend to write scrapers instead, because I find that those are usually more stable than the APIs. it's ridiculous how often I have signed up for a key, used a JSONic API, only to find that either the key issuing process changes and I have to sign up for a new one, or the API breaks in any of a myriad unfathomable ways
2017-10-11T10:33:31
sbp semweb sbp
also asks: "Did the API Economy succeed where the Semantic Web failed?"
2017-10-11T10:32:33
sbp semweb sbp
basically argues that the contemporary web didn't learn from the Semantic Web at all
2017-10-11T10:32:20
sbp semweb sbp
"If you are a developer you may be able to query APIs or write a custom scraper to get the data you need, and then write code to aggregate them into something meaningful. But in many cases even that wouldn’t be feasible due to technical, legal or time constraints."
2017-10-11T10:32:00
sbp semweb sbp
kinda hard to ignore that
2017-10-11T10:31:33
sbp semweb sbp
yeah, well, it did get lost in those details
2017-10-11T10:31:27
sbp semweb sbp
"But let’s stop arguing over details and terminology. Let’s forget about RDF, SPARQL, OWL, triple stores and quad stores for a moment. Instead, let’s take a step back and look at the high-level goal of the Semantic Web."
2017-10-11T10:31:20
yoleaux semweb yoleaux
The Semantic Web is dead. Long live the Semantic Web.
2017-10-11T10:30:43
sbp semweb sbp
.title medium.com/@dennybritz/the-semantic-web-is-dead-long-live-the-semantic-web-eddbca0a8b6
2017-10-11T10:30:43
sbp semweb sbp
it seems to base that conclusion on schema.org alone
2017-10-11T10:30:29
sbp semweb sbp
on the other hand kidehen.blogspot.com/2015/09/what-happened-to-semantic-web.html argues that the SW achieved what it set out to do, just somewhat quietly
2017-10-11T10:29:59
sbp semweb sbp
I haven't seen anything XML based in years, except I guess for the continued use of SVG
2017-10-11T10:29:28
sbp semweb sbp
Shidan Gouran: "Definitely RDF/XML is dead as a data exchange format, and soon, XML will become obsolete as well, which is a good thing."
2017-10-11T10:29:04
sbp semweb sbp
it's not like open things can't work. Wikipedia is a good example of that, despite the deletionism
2017-10-11T10:28:48
sbp semweb sbp
Alan Morrison answers: "The thing about the semantic web idea is that the development cycle has turned out to be the opposite of what Tim Berners-Lee anticipated in the early 1990s. With the semantic web concept, TBL hoped for a giant structured open web. What we got first was a bunch of closed structured webs and a mixed web that still isn’t very well structured."
2017-10-11T10:28:16
sbp semweb sbp
heh, hadn't seen 5stardata.info/en/ before
2017-10-11T10:27:51
yoleaux semweb yoleaux
As of 2015, is the semantic web dead? - Quora
2017-10-11T10:27:04
sbp semweb sbp
.title www.quora.com/As-of-2015-is-the-semantic-web-dead
2017-10-11T10:27:03
sbp semweb sbp
like the other day I wanted to compute the prime factors of a number. didn't really have anything lying around that does it in the stdlib, so eventually I downloaded sage. but that's 4 GB of stuff! you'd think we'd be able to get batteries included standard library balances right by now
2017-10-11T10:26:42
sbp semweb sbp
funny, really. again one centralised site is the leader in a space that should have been covered by Semantic Web technologies. actually that would have been a really nice thing to push for. probably still would be, though I tend to want my local computer to be able to do those sorts of calculations
2017-10-11T10:25:50
sbp semweb sbp
not exactly a competitor to WolframAlpha though is it?
2017-10-11T10:24:52
sbp semweb sbp
"Some useful data", cites schema.org, dbpedia, and wikidata
2017-10-11T10:24:38
sbp semweb sbp
quietly mentions the fact that the web has changed, data silos, all that
2017-10-11T10:23:45
sbp semweb sbp
mentions FOAF eventually
2017-10-11T10:23:09
sbp semweb sbp
says that a big problem was that ontologies were centralised (sigh), and data held privately (well, we should have seen that one coming). also, no use of Linked Data because of trust issues! what happened to the crypto that I helped timbl add to CWM then, eh? eh?
2017-10-11T10:22:40
sbp semweb sbp
the technology is Neo4j, Virtuoso, and Allegrograph. plus Oracle and Microsoft stuff that I won't even bother to mention
2017-10-11T10:21:23
sbp semweb sbp
reduced standardisation (not kidding), narrower research focus (is there ANY research?), and maturing technology
2017-10-11T10:21:01
sbp semweb sbp
ah, there we go: "Current status (2017)"
2017-10-11T10:20:35
sbp semweb sbp
then 2006 introduced Linked Data
2017-10-11T10:20:13
sbp semweb sbp
says that 2001-2004 was the golden age
2017-10-11T10:20:04
sbp semweb sbp
no PDF of the paper that I can find, but slides: ht.acm.org/ht2017/images/MikaPeterACM%20Hypertext%202017-WhatHappenedSemanticWeb.pdf
2017-10-11T10:19:39
sbp semweb sbp
"hat Happened To The Semantic Web?"
2017-10-11T10:19:10
yoleaux semweb yoleaux
403 - Forbidden Access to The Digital Library
2017-10-11T10:18:55
sbp semweb sbp
.title dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3078751
2017-10-11T10:18:54
sbp semweb sbp
what
2017-10-11T10:18:52
yoleaux semweb yoleaux
sbp: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options.
2017-10-11T10:18:49
sbp semweb sbp
.t dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3078751
2017-10-11T10:18:49
sbp semweb sbp
aand the Data Activity blog hasn't been updated since 2015: www.w3.org/blog/data/
2017-10-11T10:17:59
sbp semweb sbp
heh, www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Main_Page is said to be active but was closed this year
2017-10-11T10:17:39
sbp semweb sbp
and then others are writing lisp machine hardware verified in Coq or something
2017-10-11T10:17:19
sbp semweb sbp
it's like when you see tech stars from the 1980s and they're on twitter moaning about Trump
2017-10-11T10:16:54
sbp semweb sbp
shame really; I thought Sandro would continue to go on to do more interesting things
2017-10-11T10:16:21
sbp semweb sbp
seems to have been active, with Sandro no less, up to 2017: www.w3.org/2017/05/31-shapes-minutes.html
2017-10-11T10:16:03
sbp semweb sbp
ah, and the Data Shapes WG seems to be covering the ShEx thing I found above: www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Main_Page
2017-10-11T10:15:36
sbp semweb sbp
SD WG are working on spatial data: www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Main_Page
2017-10-11T10:15:15
sbp semweb sbp
there's also the POE WG, which is actually doing the rights thing rather than DX WG: www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Main_Page (see above)
2017-10-11T10:14:47
sbp semweb sbp
(uses ReSpec. "ReSpec is a document production toolchain, with a notable focus on W3C specifications.")
2017-10-11T10:14:06
sbp semweb sbp
there's also w3c.github.io/dxwg/ucr/ which says that DCAT has some shortcomings they want to address. that's been three years in the making then...
2017-10-11T10:13:49
sbp semweb sbp
I dunno if the W3C should be working on anything rights related these days. they seem to abrogate their responsibilities to society as hard as they can
2017-10-11T10:13:17
sbp semweb sbp
then there's w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ which is a rights policy thing
2017-10-11T10:12:50
sbp semweb sbp
oh I see. it goes dc > dct > dcat
2017-10-11T10:12:21
sbp semweb sbp
they were working on DCAT, but that was RECed in 2014: www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dcat/
2017-10-11T10:11:58
sbp semweb sbp
trying to work out what this is
2017-10-11T10:11:33
sbp semweb sbp
they have a "Dataset Exchange Working Group", www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Main_Page
2017-10-11T10:11:06
sbp semweb sbp
heh, dsr is the lead. well how about that
2017-10-11T10:10:26
sbp semweb sbp
strange that the SW page itself doesn't explain that
2017-10-11T10:09:58
sbp semweb sbp
ah, an explanation: "A few days ago W3C started a new activity, called Data Activity, that also subsumes the (by now old) Semantic Web Activity." — www.w3.org/blog/SW/
2017-10-11T10:09:50
sbp semweb sbp
the LDP WG closed in 2014 too, www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page
2017-10-11T10:09:30
sbp semweb sbp
same with the RDF WG but www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Main_Page says that was closed in 2014
2017-10-11T10:09:15
sbp semweb sbp
the RDFa WG is listed as active but according to www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/ it was closed in 2015
2017-10-11T10:09:01
sbp semweb sbp
the CG page at www.w3.org/2001/sw/CG/wiki/ asks for log in
2017-10-11T10:08:44
sbp semweb sbp
and www.w3.org/2007/11/Talks/search/query%3fdate=All+past+and+future+talks&%3bactivity=Semantic+Web&%3bsortInverse=yes is a "Discontinued service"
2017-10-11T10:08:26
sbp semweb sbp
the answers.semanticweb.com/ site that the IG page links to doesn't even respond
2017-10-11T10:08:12
sbp semweb sbp
appears to be some sort of not very good schema thing, though ericP did make one of the implementations
2017-10-11T10:07:50
sbp semweb sbp
mostly on www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/ShEx it seems
2017-10-11T10:07:10
sbp semweb sbp
only a few edits to this over the past year
2017-10-11T10:07:07
sbp semweb sbp
selckin: who?
2017-10-11T10:06:46
sbp semweb sbp
let's try www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&days=365&from=
2017-10-11T10:06:38
selckin semweb selckin
some people refuse to give up
2017-10-11T10:06:20
sbp semweb sbp
none of the recent stuff seems to be SW related though
2017-10-11T10:06:17
sbp semweb sbp
there is some activity on www.w3.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
2017-10-11T10:05:35
sbp semweb sbp
it seems that planetrdf.com/ is just a CFP spam site now
2017-10-11T10:05:11
sbp semweb sbp
looking at how active Semantic Web stuff is now, out of curiosity
2017-10-11T10:05:00