sbpsemwebI'm glad that there are still exciting things going on. there's the blockchain space, language design giving us things like rust and idris, we have HoTT (I was very sad to hear about the recent passing of Vladimir Voedovsky). but I do feel a lot more mental friction now without people like AaronSw around, and DanC off doing other things in different circles of life2017-10-11T11:35:57
sbpsemwebwhen I started doing this, I didn't even know how to program. it's strange to think back over nearly two decades now and think where I was when this started! I knew some BASIC and a very little bit of C. next thing I know, AaronSw is teaching me regular expressions and I'm hacking together RDF triple databases in Python2017-10-11T11:34:10
sbpsemweband I miss those times when DanC and AaronSw and I would be up all night just bantering about random stuff. I look back on it now and there's still so much palpable excitement2017-10-11T11:32:58
sbpsemwebI didn't really appreciate at the time just how much DanC did for me2017-10-11T11:32:14
sbpsemwebI think the biggest aspect of the Semantic Web, one that I haven't mentioned in my somewhat dispassionate research above, for me on a personal level was the society. I made lifelong friends like libby (hey libs!), and some people really helped to nurture and mentor me like DanC and AaronSw2017-10-11T11:31:57
yoleauxsemwebsaltpack - a modern crypto messaging format2017-10-11T11:26:18
sbpsemweb.title 2017-10-11T11:26:16
sbpsemwebfound it:2017-10-11T11:26:15
sbpsemwebit wasn't they had some separate site for it2017-10-11T11:25:43
sbpsemwebthey also had some format for crypto exchange somewhere...2017-10-11T11:25:05
sbpsemwebyeah, just a tiny thing2017-10-11T11:24:44
sbpsemweb(all based in centralised services of course)2017-10-11T11:24:30
wwsemwebminor issue...2017-10-11T11:24:23
sbpsemwebbut they have some good ideas. is like a decentralised key signing party2017-10-11T11:24:20
sbpsemweba few problems though, like through their client you just have arbitrary write access to people's hard drives2017-10-11T11:23:45
sbpsemwebthey have a load of stuff going on, it's pretty good reading2017-10-11T11:23:24
sbpsemweboh, one thing I did find recently that reminded me of the proof/trust layer in the Semantic Web cake graph was keybase2017-10-11T11:22:55
sbpsemwebthough, I think we can conclude from my investigation above, the presence or not of both dc_swig and the logger are probably somewhat moot in this day and age2017-10-11T11:18:21
sbpsemwebI think dajobe ran dc_swig. perhaps mentioning his name will summon him2017-10-11T11:17:45
sbpsemwebHarry I know very slightly2017-10-11T11:17:10
wwsemwebhhalpin and i overlapped here a little2017-10-11T11:16:31
sbpsemwebespecially as an ORG member2017-10-11T11:16:18
wwsemwebthat's my very out of date homepage2017-10-11T11:16:06
sbpsemwebI don't know you. pleased to meet you though2017-10-11T11:16:04
*semweb ww looks for dc_swig2017-10-11T11:15:59
sbpsemwebyou're also at Edinburgh, where I remember a handful of Semantic Web folk were based in the golden age2017-10-11T11:15:32
sbpsemwebif you know zooko then I assume we have overlapping social circles2017-10-11T11:15:09
sbpsemwebwho are you, ww? somebody whom I know? I don't recognise your nickname2017-10-11T11:14:57
sbpsemweboh, I see2017-10-11T11:14:33
sbpsemwebthere's also crap like filecoin2017-10-11T11:14:23
wwsemwebsbp: i meant as a name for the thing2017-10-11T11:14:16
sbpsemwebyeah, I think it's pretty much tahoe-lafs next generation2017-10-11T11:14:15
wwsemwebwe did something similar a while back with zooko et al doing that with tahoe-lafs2017-10-11T11:13:52
wwsemwebactually, ipfs with a tor hidden service front end is not a bad pattern...2017-10-11T11:13:37
sbpsemwebI didn't always like it, but over time you learn to separate the wheat from the chaff and certain features reveal themselves as having been valuable in hindsight that you might not have paid sufficient attention to at the time2017-10-11T11:13:24
*semweb ww dips in and out of this stuff... always liked "semantic web"...2017-10-11T11:12:20
sbpsemwebI miss the old CWM and Tabulator days. exciting times!2017-10-11T11:12:14
wwsemwebData Activity, that's a new buzzword...2017-10-11T11:11:34
sbpsemwebtimbl: what are you working on these days? I saw a lot about HTML EME, but I don't suppose that's your main preoccupation, and the Data Activity at the W3C doesn't seem all that active2017-10-11T11:11:24
sbpsemweboh, no chump bot either?2017-10-11T11:07:44
sbpsemwebso yeah, the Semantic Web may be out of the golden age, but I think like lisp it'll be one of those things that sticks around and gets rediscovered over and over, continually informing (and warning) the future2017-10-11T10:50:15
sbpsemwebso no Semantic Decentralised Web is possible just yet2017-10-11T10:48:54
sbpsemwebthese days we have the blockchain for name resolution, but nobody has figured out a decent DNS alternative through it yet (there have been many attempts). actually the best alternative is still Tor's .onion, which is kinda funny. and as for decentralised storage, IPFS was the closest there, but that seems to be losing traction too2017-10-11T10:48:33
sbpsemwebif only we had a decentralised system to put it into, eh?2017-10-11T10:47:39
sbpsemwebbut the original idea, which is something like upgrading the lisp machine from trees to graphs (incurring a bunch of algorithmically intractable problems like graph isomorphism in the process, whoops! nobody ever said timbl was a great coder), making symbols global and universal, and then linking together all the graphs in a decentralised system, was actually a pretty good one2017-10-11T10:47:32
sbpsemwebso people share through centralised services, and we get the problem that Peter Mika pointed out2017-10-11T10:46:15
sbpsemwebthese days I tend to think that the problem with the Semantic Web was not the Semantic part, it was the Web part. renting a domain from ICANN, putting it through the torture of DNS, serving things over HTTP/2 (Google Lightning™), through centralised CAs, it's not the easiest thing to do and it's not the cheapest thing to do2017-10-11T10:45:33
sbpsemweb(actually I had)2017-10-11T10:44:20
sbpsemwebso we had the Semantic Web (2001-2005), Linked Data (2006-2010), JSON-LD (2010-2014), and now the Data Activity (2015-) rump. some interesting phases there. I stopped working on this in 2007, so that explains why I hadn't heard of JSON-LD2017-10-11T10:44:18
sbpsemwebthere's also a bit on which takes the Betteridge's law tack2017-10-11T10:42:24
sbpsemweblots of people I remember mentioned in the Postscript2017-10-11T10:41:33
sbpsemwebnow he can add JSON-LD to that list :-)2017-10-11T10:40:54
sbpsemweb'That said, after 7+ years of being involved with Semantic Web / Linked Data, our company has never had a need for a quad store, RDF/XML, N3, NTriples, TURTLE, or SPARQL. When you chair standards groups that kick out “Semantic Web” standards, but even your company can’t stomach the technologies involved, something is wrong.'2017-10-11T10:40:42
sbpsemwebyou can unpack one to get the other. Text is for representational efficiency2017-10-11T10:40:13
sbpsemwebit didn't have them as an enclosed object though. I wonder if it should have done, a bit like how Haskell has Text now (opaque blob) as well as String (inductive data structure)2017-10-11T10:39:57
sbpsemwebI mean, it absolutely did have lists, and N3 showed how to do it2017-10-11T10:39:22
sbpsemweb"RDF is a shitty data model. It doesn’t have native support for lists. LISTS for fuck’s sake! The key data structure that’s used by almost every programmer on this planet and RDF starts out by giving developers a big fat middle finger in that area."2017-10-11T10:38:49
sbpsemwebManu Sporny on the creation of JSON-LD:2017-10-11T10:38:45
sbpsemwebmostly in conjunction with schema.org2017-10-11T10:37:58
sbpsemwebso I guess JSON-LD was the latest fad, covering about 2010 to 20142017-10-11T10:37:50
sbpsemwebsomething more recent: 2017-10-11T10:37:38
sbpsemweblots more SEO posts too2017-10-11T10:37:19
sbpsemwebone of the top results for JSON-LD is an SEO weblog saying: "In this post, we'll shed some light on Schema.org and JSON-LD. What is it and how can you put it to use for your website?"2017-10-11T10:37:00
sbpsemwebbut it's funny because Wikipedia says: "The encoding is used by Google Knowledge Graph[6] and others[who?]."2017-10-11T10:36:13
sbpsemwebfrom 2010, 2017-10-11T10:35:48
sbpsemweb*lots* of chatter about JSON-LD here2017-10-11T10:35:33
sbpsemweb'On a more down-to-earth level, there is now a solid web metadata standard in place in JSON-LD. The big search engines index it and presumably use it to give better results. Any startup can add value to published data by adding links - in a significant extension to the "API economy".'2017-10-11T10:35:26
sbpsemweb"JSON-LD, which is a profound improvement on and compatible with the original RDF, is the only web metadata standard with a viable future."2017-10-11T10:34:54
sbpsemwebthree years ago: 2017-10-11T10:34:12
sbpsemwebI have never seen any JSON-LD2017-10-11T10:33:48
sbpsemweb"Technologies like JSON-LD may change this."2017-10-11T10:33:45
sbpsemwebI find the API economy such a pain in the arse. I tend to write scrapers instead, because I find that those are usually more stable than the APIs. it's ridiculous how often I have signed up for a key, used a JSONic API, only to find that either the key issuing process changes and I have to sign up for a new one, or the API breaks in any of a myriad unfathomable ways2017-10-11T10:33:31
sbpsemwebalso asks: "Did the API Economy succeed where the Semantic Web failed?"2017-10-11T10:32:33
sbpsemwebbasically argues that the contemporary web didn't learn from the Semantic Web at all2017-10-11T10:32:20
sbpsemweb"If you are a developer you may be able to query APIs or write a custom scraper to get the data you need, and then write code to aggregate them into something meaningful. But in many cases even that wouldn’t be feasible due to technical, legal or time constraints."2017-10-11T10:32:00
sbpsemwebkinda hard to ignore that2017-10-11T10:31:33
sbpsemwebyeah, well, it did get lost in those details2017-10-11T10:31:27
sbpsemweb"But let’s stop arguing over details and terminology. Let’s forget about RDF, SPARQL, OWL, triple stores and quad stores for a moment. Instead, let’s take a step back and look at the high-level goal of the Semantic Web."2017-10-11T10:31:20
yoleauxsemwebThe Semantic Web is dead. Long live the Semantic Web.2017-10-11T10:30:43
sbpsemweb.title 2017-10-11T10:30:43
sbpsemwebit seems to base that conclusion on schema.org alone2017-10-11T10:30:29
sbpsemwebon the other hand argues that the SW achieved what it set out to do, just somewhat quietly2017-10-11T10:29:59
sbpsemwebI haven't seen anything XML based in years, except I guess for the continued use of SVG2017-10-11T10:29:28
sbpsemwebShidan Gouran: "Definitely RDF/XML is dead as a data exchange format, and soon, XML will become obsolete as well, which is a good thing."2017-10-11T10:29:04
sbpsemwebit's not like open things can't work. Wikipedia is a good example of that, despite the deletionism2017-10-11T10:28:48
sbpsemwebAlan Morrison answers: "The thing about the semantic web idea is that the development cycle has turned out to be the opposite of what Tim Berners-Lee anticipated in the early 1990s. With the semantic web concept, TBL hoped for a giant structured open web. What we got first was a bunch of closed structured webs and a mixed web that still isn’t very well structured."2017-10-11T10:28:16
sbpsemwebheh, hadn't seen before2017-10-11T10:27:51
yoleauxsemwebAs of 2015, is the semantic web dead? - Quora2017-10-11T10:27:04
sbpsemweb.title 2017-10-11T10:27:03
sbpsemweblike the other day I wanted to compute the prime factors of a number. didn't really have anything lying around that does it in the stdlib, so eventually I downloaded sage. but that's 4 GB of stuff! you'd think we'd be able to get batteries included standard library balances right by now2017-10-11T10:26:42
sbpsemwebfunny, really. again one centralised site is the leader in a space that should have been covered by Semantic Web technologies. actually that would have been a really nice thing to push for. probably still would be, though I tend to want my local computer to be able to do those sorts of calculations2017-10-11T10:25:50
sbpsemwebnot exactly a competitor to WolframAlpha though is it?2017-10-11T10:24:52
sbpsemweb"Some useful data", cites schema.org, dbpedia, and wikidata2017-10-11T10:24:38
sbpsemwebquietly mentions the fact that the web has changed, data silos, all that2017-10-11T10:23:45
sbpsemwebmentions FOAF eventually2017-10-11T10:23:09
sbpsemwebsays that a big problem was that ontologies were centralised (sigh), and data held privately (well, we should have seen that one coming). also, no use of Linked Data because of trust issues! what happened to the crypto that I helped timbl add to CWM then, eh? eh?2017-10-11T10:22:40
sbpsemwebthe technology is Neo4j, Virtuoso, and Allegrograph. plus Oracle and Microsoft stuff that I won't even bother to mention2017-10-11T10:21:23
sbpsemwebreduced standardisation (not kidding), narrower research focus (is there ANY research?), and maturing technology2017-10-11T10:21:01
sbpsemwebah, there we go: "Current status (2017)"2017-10-11T10:20:35
sbpsemwebthen 2006 introduced Linked Data2017-10-11T10:20:13
sbpsemwebsays that 2001-2004 was the golden age2017-10-11T10:20:04
sbpsemwebno PDF of the paper that I can find, but slides: 2017-10-11T10:19:39
sbpsemweb"hat Happened To The Semantic Web?"2017-10-11T10:19:10
yoleauxsemweb403 - Forbidden Access to The Digital Library2017-10-11T10:18:55
sbpsemweb.title 2017-10-11T10:18:54
yoleauxsemwebsbp: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see for a list of options.2017-10-11T10:18:49
sbpsemweb.t 2017-10-11T10:18:49
sbpsemwebaand the Data Activity blog hasn't been updated since 2015: 2017-10-11T10:17:59
sbpsemwebheh, is said to be active but was closed this year2017-10-11T10:17:39
sbpsemweband then others are writing lisp machine hardware verified in Coq or something2017-10-11T10:17:19
sbpsemwebit's like when you see tech stars from the 1980s and they're on twitter moaning about Trump2017-10-11T10:16:54
sbpsemwebshame really; I thought Sandro would continue to go on to do more interesting things2017-10-11T10:16:21
sbpsemwebseems to have been active, with Sandro no less, up to 2017: 2017-10-11T10:16:03
sbpsemwebah, and the Data Shapes WG seems to be covering the ShEx thing I found above: 2017-10-11T10:15:36
sbpsemwebSD WG are working on spatial data: 2017-10-11T10:15:15
sbpsemwebthere's also the POE WG, which is actually doing the rights thing rather than DX WG: (see above)2017-10-11T10:14:47
sbpsemweb(uses ReSpec. "ReSpec is a document production toolchain, with a notable focus on W3C specifications.")2017-10-11T10:14:06
sbpsemwebthere's also which says that DCAT has some shortcomings they want to address. that's been three years in the making then...2017-10-11T10:13:49
sbpsemwebI dunno if the W3C should be working on anything rights related these days. they seem to abrogate their responsibilities to society as hard as they can2017-10-11T10:13:17
sbpsemwebthen there's which is a rights policy thing2017-10-11T10:12:50
sbpsemweboh I see. it goes dc > dct > dcat2017-10-11T10:12:21
sbpsemwebthey were working on DCAT, but that was RECed in 2014: 2017-10-11T10:11:58
sbpsemwebtrying to work out what this is2017-10-11T10:11:33
sbpsemwebthey have a "Dataset Exchange Working Group", 2017-10-11T10:11:06
sbpsemwebheh, dsr is the lead. well how about that2017-10-11T10:10:26
sbpsemwebstrange that the SW page itself doesn't explain that2017-10-11T10:09:58
sbpsemwebah, an explanation: "A few days ago W3C started a new activity, called Data Activity, that also subsumes the (by now old) Semantic Web Activity." — 2017-10-11T10:09:50
sbpsemwebthe LDP WG closed in 2014 too, 2017-10-11T10:09:30
sbpsemwebsame with the RDF WG but says that was closed in 20142017-10-11T10:09:15
sbpsemwebthe RDFa WG is listed as active but according to it was closed in 20152017-10-11T10:09:01
sbpsemwebthe CG page at asks for log in2017-10-11T10:08:44
sbpsemweband is a "Discontinued service"2017-10-11T10:08:26
sbpsemwebthe site that the IG page links to doesn't even respond2017-10-11T10:08:12
sbpsemwebappears to be some sort of not very good schema thing, though ericP did make one of the implementations2017-10-11T10:07:50
sbpsemwebmostly on it seems2017-10-11T10:07:10
sbpsemwebonly a few edits to this over the past year2017-10-11T10:07:07
sbpsemwebselckin: who?2017-10-11T10:06:46
sbpsemweblet's try 2017-10-11T10:06:38
selckinsemwebsome people refuse to give up2017-10-11T10:06:20
sbpsemwebnone of the recent stuff seems to be SW related though2017-10-11T10:06:17
sbpsemwebthere is some activity on 2017-10-11T10:05:35
sbpsemwebit seems that is just a CFP spam site now2017-10-11T10:05:11
sbpsemweblooking at how active Semantic Web stuff is now, out of curiosity2017-10-11T10:05:00